Curse

drkn · Apr 15, 2010, 06:52 AM // 06:52

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Please, just give us the time, and we will give you a stellar update, I promise.

i'm fine with it and i have some high hopes and faith as long as you also promise to balance out it further if something gets broken or you happen to introduce new mechanics/skills that still suck or suck more.
as i've said earlier many times, i'm fine with not-the-best updates or changes that are changed after a day or two - either changed back or changed the other way around. would be nice to be assured that if that update turns out not to be that great as it sounds, it will still be balanced out, even by tiny bits - even by a skill every two days, as the general core of the update would be already done.

upier · Apr 15, 2010, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Allamorph · Apr 15, 2010, 07:28 AM // 07:28

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Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

I want to see not how people on a forum (which is typically a place for people that have only negative feedback come) react,....

This is simultaneously the most intelligent statement I've seen on these boards so far and one of the best casual shots I've seen anyone, including myself, take. Bravo, sir.

Also, I and my little mesmer girlie eagerly await the fruits of your labors.

**cosyfiep** · Apr 15, 2010, 07:30 AM // 07:30

it would be nice to be able to get into a pug with my mesmers....that would be a great big change in my book----am looking forward to this as I have a mesmer working towards gwamm.

shoyon456 · Apr 15, 2010, 07:55 AM // 07:55

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Originally Posted by upier

When you'll be looking into the dervish-issue, you TRASH other options so that the dervish will be on par with them and not buff the dervish up to the level of insanity on which these other options are now.

You're giving Anet and the test krewe way too much credit.

Gill Halendt · Apr 15, 2010, 11:21 AM // 11:21

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Originally Posted by upier

The guys at A.Net need to sit down and take a few days to rethink how they want GW (and more importantly GW2!) to play. Unless they already did that and the decision that they reached was that GW is supposed to be a massive grindfest.

Players turned GW into this "massive grindfest".

Anet just stopped developing the current game and moved to the next one. It's just that people are obsessed with GW1, looked for artificial ways to prolong their gaming experience beyond natural, and became obsessed with efficiency. Grinding is present in Guild Wars, in massive proportions, no doubt. But it's no way a mandatory task, it's players who self-inflict grinding to themselves because they just can't quit playing, so they simply keep on doing whatever they can by compulsion.

You can't blame Anet for that, you can't blame them for giving their customer base what they were asking.

drkn · Apr 15, 2010, 11:46 AM // 11:46

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But it's no way a mandatory task, it's players who self-inflict grinding to themselves because they just can't quit playing, so they simply keep on doing whatever they can by compulsion.

nah - getting titles is still playing the content. to get sweet tooth, party, drunkard, th, wisdom, lucky and unlucky maxed, not to mention kurzick and luxon, one has to grind up a lot.
grindfest is compulsory if you want to get into unlocking achievements. and well, most nowadays games have those, even ra3, and their a vital part of the game's mechanics and what we see as 'fun'.

upier · Apr 15, 2010, 11:49 AM // 11:49

drkn · Apr 15, 2010, 12:13 PM // 12:13

content with no grind in mmo would be repeating. as in - there's not much new things to do tbh, every new story will somehow resemble the past ones. and will be playable much shorter than the grind may be - if people are able to finish NM factions in ~4-5 hours, a whole campaign, the game would be pretty much dead without any form of grind.

but that's not the topic. i kinda agree with you that the skills are a tad broken now. there are too many skills, and skill combinations, that are overpowered in game. although i don't find anything wrong in rolling through the pve content faster than it should be - if vanquishing one area takes about an hour, it's still long enough for the game.
i'm always much more concerned about the availability of overpowered things. back when monks could easily 600/smite and only sins had imbalanced SF, other classes were handicapped. though 600/smite and SF were truly broken and should never see the light of the day, i'm not totally against powerful skills/builds - as long as every class has it's own powerful niche and, in the end, the classes are balanced among themselves in terms of power.

Cuilan · Apr 15, 2010, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Perhaps someone can tell what was done about physicals? How were they addressed? The last update was indeed made to encourage and further buff physical based groups, despite them being so powerful already.

Gill Halendt · Apr 15, 2010, 01:26 PM // 13:26

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Originally Posted by upier

Part of being a game designer is knowing what you want to do with your game

They chose to halt any further development of this game. Was it a wise decision? Probably not.

New professions and skills added to the game could have been problematic, considering half of the current professions are redundant and a lot of skills are never used. But, heck, who ever said a new campaign was to come with these? Couldn't they just work on a couple new expansions? New maps, missions, quests and areas were absolutely feasible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

and sticking with the plan even if it does (slightly) contradict with what players want.

The players wanted more content. They stuck to the plan and chose to contradict them, halting any further development anyway.

So, for the playerbase, the limited content introduced so far was all that was given to them. It's the playerbase who chose to stick with GW1 - a game not being developed anymore. You can question the shortsightedness of ANet in this process (did they REALLY think they could develop a new game from scratch in less than two years?), but, really, have you signed a death pact agreement with ANet that forces you to play - hence, to grind?

I don't see a single reason for people to keep on playing when:

- They find the game boring because of the lack of new content
- They find the game utterly broken
- They have played whatever they could in 5 years and now resort to repetitive grinding

It's a matter of choice. Doing something you don't like because you can't do without it is compulsion. Pure and simple. You either like the fact that the "playable content" is over, and stick to these optional tasks like grinding titles and hoarding shinies and golds, or not. Without new content worth this name, there's nothing to be done. Tone down grinding, and in a matter of months you'll have nothing to do and moan again about the game being dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

A.Net decided that they were too lazy to actually develop content so they took the easy road and gave us a shitload of grind.

It was there already. It's just that the game is over now, and this shitload of grind is everything that's left for us, and it's more evident than ever now that no new content is being offered.

upier · Apr 15, 2010, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Lord Sojar · Apr 15, 2010, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

To put this as bluntly as possible:
Melee physicals were buffed in the last update.
This either means that A.Net isn't listening to the suggestions you guys make, or you guys have no idea what you are doing.
For future reference:
YOU.DO.NOT.BUFF.MELEE.PHYSICALS.
When you'll be looking into the dervish-issue, you TRASH other options so that the dervish will be on par with them and not buff the dervish up to the level of insanity on which these other options are now.

As long as those groups represent "everyday players" - there is absolutely no way to fix PvE. And if you are going to update the mesmers to cater to these groups of players, there is just no way that you can keep a hint of balance in the class.

The guys at A.Net need to sit down and take a few days to rethink how they want GW (and more importantly GW2!) to play. Unless they already did that and the decision that they reached was that GW is supposed to be a massive grindfest.

Compared to most MMOs, Guild Wars is anything but a grindfest.

We buffed Hammer Mastery, to make hammer a more viable solution in PvE. Subsequently, some monsters became rather icky to go against, some became pointless. The monster skill update that followed in March addressed many of those issues. We buffed Tactics, a line that desperately needed some help. I, personally, still don't believe Tactics is quite where it should be, but it's at least good enough to be viable in some builds.

So you suggest we should change the game to cater to who? You? Elite players? You don't makes changes that benefit the top 1-5% of a population, you make changes that benefit the lower 10-80% who represent the normal. Sorry we don't run things like America, go QQ about it elsewhere. Changes aren't ever going to make everyone happy, that's fact. Hammer needed buffs to be viable in PvE, Tactics needed buffs to be viable in general. Mesmers need buffs and changes to be viable in PvE. These are facts, not assumptions.

So... PvE is a bit harder in some areas... OH NO (because being able to steam roll an area is normal right?.. yeh, no) ANET isn't out to make you and only you happy Upier, it's out to make the majority of the population in Guild Wars happy, while maintaining each elite area's difficultly level. Gimmick builds should exist, but they shouldn't overshadow balanced teams that work together. That's it, simple and to the point.

maxxfury · Apr 15, 2010, 01:59 PM // 13:59

I really hope! that rajah et all on the TK who know what they are doing and have some vision, dont get overridden by the management/less knowledgeable on these potential nice balance ideas....

Keep pushing the good ideas Rajah! just hope that the other lower tier classes will see a little love too, like the derv, ranger and the para or it will just be the mes stepping on head to get in front. Leaving someone else on the bottom of the pile. Oh and a few "Un-buffs" wouldnt hurt to some of the more OP stuff

*cough* Er *cough :P

a little positivity in the negativity of the riverside

drkn · Apr 15, 2010, 02:30 PM // 14:30

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(because the mesmer already works in non-grind content).

it doesn't.
i mean - everything works in non-grind content, aka doing missions - in general. but that's due to powerful heroes (see: guys running blank builds in HM at wartower and letting heroes do everything). to say it short, mesmers work in the game not because they are powerful enough to do something viable there, but the game is easy enough with it's current mechanics to allow even a mesmer player to achieve the basic goals.

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I, personally, still don't believe Tactics is quite where it should be, but it's at least good enough to be viable in some builds.

warrior's tactics -> 'what tactics do I use in order to be better at killing and staying alive'. dodges, parries, shielding, personal buffs only. party-wide stuff from tactics, party buffs, shouts and general party-management should be moved to paragon's motivation, making it a bit more useful.

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Gimmick builds should exist, but they shouldn't overshadow balanced teams that work together. That's it, simple and to the point.

i actually agree on this point. still, the gimmicks should be given out in the same amounts to all classes - i think that was one of upier's points, though his ideas were too overpowered.
still, the general idea is - if they (other classes) can do xyz with a gimmick, a mesmer should be able to do it too that way. if less than 6-7 classes can do something with a gimmick, it should be nerfed (as 600/smite was).

upier · Apr 15, 2010, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Master Mxyzptlk · Apr 15, 2010, 03:07 PM // 15:07

I'm going to come to Upier's defense here (I think, not entirely sure who's making which points sometimes).

A mesmer buff should ideally include making mesmers useful for High end PvE. Everyone runs gimmicks in those, unless they're running with a guild because those areas are usually designed in such a way that only gimmicks are reliable with pick up groups. I'm not talking speed clearing the dungeons/UW. I'm just talking normal/hardmode play. How many random pugs can do HM DoA? Or the Deep?

Mesmers can do fine in normal PvE campaign play. Anyone with heroes and henchmen can. Some areas are harder than others, thats expected, normal, and desired. I would like my mesmer to be able to go into the DoA where there are no henchmen. So I'm not saying that we should make the game easier for the top 5% of players, I don't think we should, even without insulting people's nationality. But those top 5% can get into DoA on their mesmer with their awesome guild, or they use their other two accounts for 6 necro heroes or whatever.

If you want to buff a game for the bottom 80%, give them a way to get into the DoA and such with PuGs or their guild of 4 local friends. I'm not saying Mesmers need a place in 10 minute UWSC, I'm saying clearing the underworld shouldn't be restricted to the top 5% of players or those that pick gimmicks up off of PvX.

I don't expect this update to change that. But I would like it to bring us closer to that.

Lord Sojar · Apr 15, 2010, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Take hammers.
Pre-buff.
Throw SoH on them.
GDW.
Orders.
Barbs.
MoP.
Cracked Armour.
EBSoH.
Ancestor's Rage the guy.
Asuran Scan.
All while you can run SY!

And what did the update bring?
You buffed hammers.
You buffed Blood which already had Orders which now means more options.
You buffed AR.

And you are now going against monsters that have 600HP while you do 100-200 damage per hit (pre-AS).

And this thing now isn't the most overpowered thing in the game.
There actually are better options than this.
Which means that the things that are "viable" are so obscenely overpowered that they shouldn't even be in the game, let alone represent the norm.
For instance, mesmers have caster induced AoE daze though FD.
They have unlimited energy through AP.
Insta-cast KDs, deep wounds, ... though PvE-only skills.
Dervishes suffer under the same thing. They are the vessel for the insane physical buffs. They can use SY! Covered DW every few secs.
And just like the mesmer they are considered to not be viable. And the only reason why that is so is because our idea of what is "viable" is completely broken.

And that's exactly why the mesmer works.
I mean we just took down Duncan with a bunch of Disco-heroes which ended up being pretty darn useless (I only saw them use Disco a few times), a spirit spammer whose spirits refused to go after Duncan (we forgot to being Swap so all the spirits stayed in the spawn locations ...), me as a Spirit's Strength bow rit and a Avatar of Balthasar-dervish, relying on my and the Dervishes auto-attacks.
Not being viable means that you do not have the insane strength of the best options, yet your output is still far above that what should be considered balanced.

Things you are pointing out aren't really that overpowered. PvE is the way it is, and the way you are suggesting things, you want revisions and changes that would make the game nearly impossible to play for a vast majority of players. Again, game companies don't cater to the top 5% of players who are the brightest and best, they cater to the bottom 10-80% who are max level, have the basic things they need, and want to farm/work on titles/get better armor.

So... sorry I guess that the game isn't free of gimmicky or meta builds... but that's the way it is. Do you think there aren't gimmicky things in WoW's PvE? You're sadly mistaken if you do. The issue with Mesmers is fundamental: Why interrupt stuff when we can just kill it fast and ignore it for the rest of the fight? Answer: PvE mobs aren't balanced in many parts of the game, and gimmick builds work against that. That's why we are going to introduce another change that should fix some of these stupid gimmick builds that don't revolve around a balanced team working together.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Mxyzptlk

I'm going to come to Upier's defense here (I think, not entirely sure who's making which points sometimes).

A mesmer buff should ideally include making mesmers useful for High end PvE. Everyone runs gimmicks in those, unless they're running with a guild because those areas are usually designed in such a way that only gimmicks are reliable with pick up groups. I'm not talking speed clearing the dungeons/UW. I'm just talking normal/hardmode play. How many random pugs can do HM DoA? Or the Deep?

Mesmers can do fine in normal PvE campaign play. Anyone with heroes and henchmen can. Some areas are harder than others, thats expected, normal, and desired. I would like my mesmer to be able to go into the DoA where there are no henchmen. So I'm not saying that we should make the game easier for the top 5% of players, I don't think we should, even without insulting people's nationality. But those top 5% can get into DoA on their mesmer with their awesome guild, or they use their other two accounts for 6 necro heroes or whatever.

If you want to buff a game for the bottom 80%, give them a way to get into the DoA and such with PuGs or their guild of 4 local friends. I'm not saying Mesmers need a place in 10 minute UWSC, I'm saying clearing the underworld shouldn't be restricted to the top 5% of players or those that pick gimmicks up off of PvX.

I don't expect this update to change that. But I would like it to bring us closer to that.

The update probably won't change some people's views of Mesmers, or maybe it will. It will certainly make the Mesmer a valid choice against other classes, without overshadowing those other classes. Groups should be able to choose what they want to bring to a group from a pool of available people in the district, not have to specify a specific class to effectively deal damage. Mesmers will still focus on interrupting and punishment for actions against mobs, but they will just be more appreciated for their skill.

And no, we aren't buffing Mesmers so they are "the new thing" What our goal is, is more equality in organized play. PUGs are worthless as it is, and will probably remain that way given the nature of the game's PvE systems. That won't change in Guild Wars 1, at least not from what I can see. PUGs will either be forced to use broken gimmicky builds that may or may not succeed guaranteed, or they will not do those elite areas. You don't see many DoA PUGs do too well for this reason.

drkn · Apr 15, 2010, 03:11 PM // 15:11

upier, i took duncan down in two people + 6 heroes, with me on a mesmer and another player being the rit. no problems there.
moreso, we took down whole doa, including the big ape. the same combination. only had problems at the foundry and the ape took us a while, but after figuring the right builds, it went fine.

but it all went fine when i chose not to bring any mesmer skills, having ~6 in FC and all skills from secondary + pve skills. so something's wrong.

Lord Sojar · Apr 15, 2010, 03:17 PM // 15:17

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Originally Posted by drkn

upier, i took duncan down in two people + 6 heroes, with me on a mesmer and another player being the rit. no problems there.
moreso, we took down whole doa, including the big ape. the same combination. only had problems at the foundry and the ape took us a while, but after figuring the right builds, it went fine.

but it all went fine when i chose not to bring any mesmer skills, having ~6 in FC and all skills from secondary + pve skills. so something's wrong.

Bingo! Mesmer's don't really play their primary in PvE very often, because of the nature of PvE. They are also typically forced to run very nasty attribute splits in order to be semi effective. These are things we are focusing on...